In my 10 years doing this I have never shied away from conversation, confrontation, criticism, discussion, or any other means of verbal sparring. I have also never shied away from admitting being wrong when I have been wrong just as I delight when I am right.
I did not make further mention of the Poll because there appeared to be more pressing and interesting topics upon my return from hiatus, however, there is at least one person that would like to discuss the ethicality of holding or retaining your child back for athletic purposes.
The Poll was pretty clear cut; most voters clearly felt that Holding you child back for athletic purposes is not Ethical and should not be a allowed.
There were 81 participants in this poll, and a Majority 44% of voters felt that holding your kid back for athletic purposes is cheating.
38% feel it’s unethical and should be illegal.
37% feel the FHSAA should revise the rule of 19-9.
37% felt that parents are hurting the kids with this practice.
The much smaller minority was not opposed to the practice of holding kids back and instead found it favorable, and at times necessary.
I erroneously believed that the people who read this poll could separate their personal bias and emotions and respond based on logical progression not to mention existing legislation that governs what actually takes place. This is not to say that I do not understand that many people who voted do not like the rules, but not liking the rule does not equate to cheating when no rule has been broken.
My comments are simple, the rules are there for a reason, not to use the rules to ones advantage is less than diligent, especially if dismissing the rule is putting your child at a competitive disadvantage.
The evidence that holding a child back has far more positive effects than not holding him back is clear and present and simple to find. Eric Grajales is of course the poster child for the success of a child being held back for competitive advantage. However, I would like to know who are the kids out there that are hurt by staying longer when clearly kids that are held back are more mentally mature (not just in wrestling but with their studies), more physically developed (which can not be argued), more adaptable to the stresses of high level competition, and more ready to compete in an elite class.
I understand that this is a personal choice, if your child is hurt by this rule such is the nature of the beast. Kids nowadays have an expression, “don’t hate the player, hate the game” I don’t think the person who came up with that statement recognized the reasoning behind what it is they were saying, nevertheless it is accurate as it applies to the FHSAA and athletics. There are many FHSAA policies that we don’t like but must nonetheless adhere to, so when you find one that can help you, it would be silly not to use it to it’s fullest.
These are just my opinions, and I would certainly be happy to entertain and discuss any and all points of view. Never again say that Spidey ran from a conversation, it is simply not accurate.
I did not make further mention of the Poll because there appeared to be more pressing and interesting topics upon my return from hiatus, however, there is at least one person that would like to discuss the ethicality of holding or retaining your child back for athletic purposes.
The Poll was pretty clear cut; most voters clearly felt that Holding you child back for athletic purposes is not Ethical and should not be a allowed.
There were 81 participants in this poll, and a Majority 44% of voters felt that holding your kid back for athletic purposes is cheating.
38% feel it’s unethical and should be illegal.
37% feel the FHSAA should revise the rule of 19-9.
37% felt that parents are hurting the kids with this practice.
The much smaller minority was not opposed to the practice of holding kids back and instead found it favorable, and at times necessary.
I erroneously believed that the people who read this poll could separate their personal bias and emotions and respond based on logical progression not to mention existing legislation that governs what actually takes place. This is not to say that I do not understand that many people who voted do not like the rules, but not liking the rule does not equate to cheating when no rule has been broken.
My comments are simple, the rules are there for a reason, not to use the rules to ones advantage is less than diligent, especially if dismissing the rule is putting your child at a competitive disadvantage.
The evidence that holding a child back has far more positive effects than not holding him back is clear and present and simple to find. Eric Grajales is of course the poster child for the success of a child being held back for competitive advantage. However, I would like to know who are the kids out there that are hurt by staying longer when clearly kids that are held back are more mentally mature (not just in wrestling but with their studies), more physically developed (which can not be argued), more adaptable to the stresses of high level competition, and more ready to compete in an elite class.
I understand that this is a personal choice, if your child is hurt by this rule such is the nature of the beast. Kids nowadays have an expression, “don’t hate the player, hate the game” I don’t think the person who came up with that statement recognized the reasoning behind what it is they were saying, nevertheless it is accurate as it applies to the FHSAA and athletics. There are many FHSAA policies that we don’t like but must nonetheless adhere to, so when you find one that can help you, it would be silly not to use it to it’s fullest.
These are just my opinions, and I would certainly be happy to entertain and discuss any and all points of view. Never again say that Spidey ran from a conversation, it is simply not accurate.
33 comments:
Spiderman,
I am of the belief that rules should be followed and in the event that rules can be used to one's advantage they should also do the same. I have sat and gleefully enjoyed the reparte of the bloggers about the dynamics of American holding their kids back for athletic advantage and how they are so hated by some Columbus supporters. I was just wondering if Osorio knew these kids when they were in elementary school or middle school and actually convinced their parents to hold them back. Of course with the promise of coming over to American to coach them when they were of age? I was also wondering how many of the American wrestlers are of age because many on this blog have assumed that the whole team was held back for this advantage. In two years American was able to beat schools they could not compete with a year two years ago. What are they complaining about. Maybe you can shed some light on this matter.
Anonymous,
In the Case of Brandon High School, they are in fact a well oiled machine that operates as you described early in your post; meaning, that they identify, selectively target, and implement a retention plan along with the parents to maximize the potential of their future athletes. There is no way in hell this is the case with American. Not only has Coach Osorio only been at American for only two seasons (not yet completed his second), but he had never met the majority of the kids on his team until just last season. The fact that Chirino is a bit older than the norm is happenstance, and not something that was done by design. They can complain all they want but if you step back and take a look at what Osorio has done it is truly remarkable. He put two school readily on the wrestling map that would never have gotten their without him, and as evidenced by what happened at Hialeah quickly deteriorating upon his departure. He does all this with no kids program, no junior high feeders, no corps of coaches, and no parental support.
Those complaining are "sore" losers.
As long as they were getting beat by most of the teams in the county even if they had a few 18 or 19 year olds, no one cared or mentioned it. But now that they are beating top teams and getting attention, unfortunately the "SORE" LOSERS want to give them negative attention to justify their success.
This is classless, pathetic, and obviously a display of poor sportsmanship.
There are two Head coaches at Amercian so Osorio does not merit all the credit. Coach Baez is just as important as Osorio. Also notice that American only has 2 seniors on their current team.
While it's obviously not cheating when no rules are being broken, I still have some ethical concerns with holding kids back for an athletic advantage. I mean, sure it results in some success stories (Eric Grajales, for one), but I feel like in doing so you are essentially telling the child that school is less important than wrestling. This may be true for wrestlers like Grajales, but not everyone is going to have such a successful wrestling career.
That's not to say that being held back automatically means you are going to do poorly in school, but I think that once you make it clear that wrestling comes before a normal academic life, then what motivation does the child have to do well in school? Again, I think it is just an example of parents who get too caught up in wrestling to see what they are doing to their kids. Investing everything in wrestling, a sport that is prone to career-ending injuries and other variable factors, seems almost irresponsible to me.
Being held back can be an academic advantage as well. Sometimes kids mature late and are not able to develop their studying or learning skills until a later age. Holding them back not only gives them a chance to be a well-developed athelte, but a well-developed student as well (Giving them a better chance to go to a Division I University).
Don’t get me wrong. If I had a kid I would not want to make the decision of taking a year away from his life slowing down his progress. Who knows? He might develop quickly after getting out of high school and find a better way of getting to a top University. It’s tough being a parent. Their decisions have to be decided upon the child’s life in general, not just wrestling.
Anonymous (et. al),
I could not disagree more with just about everything negative you had to say in regards to holding a child back.
Everyone knows that boys mature later than girls; a boy that is held back for athletic purposes has the following advantages in education.
More maturity and responsibility in regards to education, thus better able to cope with the stresses of competition and education
A more developed sense of self and responsibility by the time they reach high school which makes them less apt to be followers and deviate from their preset goals.
Higher order brain function to better understand more difficult problems that come with taking advanced level courses.
Peer leadership due to Being older than his classmates, others will look to him for guidance rather than having to find a niche.
These are just some of the advantages to be had by holding boys back in school a year or two, the athletic advantages go without saying, but the same principles that benefit in regards to athletics cross over to education.
BTW, Cesar Grajales Junior attends an Ivy League school (Penn) and Eric could also have gone to and Ivy League school according to his academic standing, but instead chose Michigan.
If have said this before and I will say it again, Cesar Grajales is a great father and did the most to further the careers of both his children. What more could a son ask for, what more could a father do?
The poll may have gone against what I feel personally, but that does not mean I am wrong, it likely means that many of you are merely misinformed. I bet you would be hard pressed to show me a situation where a kid was held back and was worse off from the experience. You can argue till you are blue in the face your personal biases, but I can show you examples of kids that were held back that because of that practice have received great benefit and you can not reciprocate with examples to the contrary, what does that tell you?
Artist,
Where you at kid this subject was started just for you?
Spideysorio
Other Anonymous,
Well said, I reiterated many of the same things you said in my reply. Great minds and all that...
Fact: Kendrick Sanders at Steadwell Memorial tournament in Pt. St.Lucie two saturdays ago with the Raich family.
Rumor: Raich family has adopted him.
Discuss...
Spiderman, I wasn't implying at all that Cesar Grajales was being an irresponsible parent. In fact, given the skill-level and talent that his kids have, I think he made the right decision. However, what I was saying in my post is that holding kids back in for athletics in general seems inherently wrong to me.
Again, this just my opinion, but not everyone is at the same caliber as the Grajales boys, and not everyone is going to benefit in the ways that they have. Do you really think holding a kid back for a year will magically make him that much more mature? I mean, the reason most 19-year olds appear more mature than most 18-year olds is because they have gone through a year of college and have lived on their own. And even if they do happen to be more mature physically, they will still be going to school with and hanging around kids who are a year younger, kids who, according to you, have hugely under-developed leadership skills, brain function, and responsibility.
The type of maturity you're talking about (responsibility, work ethic, etc) are best learned in a college environment, where kids can think and make decisions for themselves. Holding kids back in high school won't give them the proper environment for any maturation other than the physical kind. I know you are going to have something to say in response to this, and I don't wnat you to think that I'm being hostile or purposefully argumentative because, truthfully, I like to hear what you have to say. I do, however, stand by my original statement; holding kids back seems largely detrimental, unless you are dealing with exceptional cases (i.e. Eric Grajales).
Spidey,
I have been waiting for 3 weeks since the poll had closed for your response. Some of us go to school and/or work for a living. I do know that you are most likely an assistant at American and not Osorio himself. I can however see you sitting there in the athletic office at American typing on the schools computer during the middle of the day. In fact, you only post when schools in session and you wont post from home in an effort to maintain your anonymity.
The Artist
(To be continued)
You can try and justify this any which way you want..... holding a kid back just to gain an athletic advantage is sending the wrong message. PERIOD. Kids should be taught that school and grades are the priority. Please don't insult those of us that read this board by saying that these kids are being held back for academic and maturity reasons because we know it is not true in the majority of cases involving wrestlers. They are held back to be older than their competition and/or to wait until coaches need them in the line-up. The sad part is, especially where the Brandon kids are concerned, those kids would do great WITHOUT being held back because they start wrestling at such a young age and have lots of success at the kids level nationally. Starting high school at 16 instead of 14 is ridiculous, and you will NEVER convince me this is done for the right reasons.
Now to the subject at hand. When a child is left back for academic purposes it's quite different than one that is held back simply to be a better athlete. This subject is always argued almost every year and on almost every message board in the nation. The result is always the same, It's cheating no matter how you cut it. The only reason that Chirino gets mentioned in this conversation is because of his constant bragging about how he placed at states as a sophomore. Well guess what? He was almost the same age of the wrestlers that graduated (Chinchilla, Heiser, Youel, Vasquez, Dinelli and Moore). He also brags that he is a 2 time state champion and he has yet to qualify for states yet. You Patriots can talk all you want about how good he is, and this that and the other, but he wont even graduate this year. He will be around yet another year and be 19 years old at States in 2010. Actually, his name would never be brought up if he wouldnt flaunt the fact that he "placed as a sophomore". Then, in an effort to defend HC, you pull the old "Well, Henry's only been wrestling for 2 years" routine. Well, guess what? How many heavyweights in this state have been wrestling for more than 2 or 3 years? Very few is the answer because they are taken from the football JV squads in an effort to keep them in shape for football. I don't even like heavyweights because of the general lack of skill because they play other sports. But I also cannot stand a cocky wrestler who taunts his competitors because he has a 2-3 year age advantage on most of his opponents. Yes Brandon has set the standard for cheating within the rules, but as your poll reflects, ITS STILL CHEATING! Spidey, you have always preached a hatred for teams that "recruit". I actually believe that parents should let there kids attend whichever school they want to so long as its equal or better to the education that they are getting. For example, leaving Columbus for South Dade would be a huge mistake. People like you care only about making your team better by any means necessary (Juicing, holding kids back, wrestling dirty). After Osorio and other coaches are done with their kids, they could care less about what they become or furthering their education. Instead, what some coaches produce are 19-20 year old High School graduates who go on to work at Winn Dixie bagging groceries or working lawn maintenance for a living. Jealousy Huh? I think not, I would rather graduate at 17 and place at the State Tournament and start college at 18 then win States at 19 and graduate or start college at 20. The fact is that 19-9 is too old. A 19 year old vs a 14 year old Freshman is too big of a difference and everyone knows it. That's why your poll backfired, because you are wrong and a majority of people agree.
Game. Set. Match!
The ever lovable artist!
Artist,
Cocky? Arrogant? Flaunting? You must be talking about the WHOLE Columbus team right? The only one from that team that needs to be mentioned as a true honest competitor is the older Gulisien. That man is very respectful and forthright. The others, who's names will not be mentioned, are excatly what you stated in your long drawn out passage. Did you forget the flaunting that Pena did last year before the South Dade match? Have you not seen some of those kids try to embarrass other wrestlers just for fun? What can I say here but allow you to remember your own catholic teachings, "you hipocrite, remove that log from your own eye so you can see clear enough to remove the fig from your own." Sage words from the greatest being who ever lived. You should know him. Maybe you should read his many works.
Waddya dumbasses talkin' about. As long as you stay within the written regulations,I don't wanna hear it.Quit your bellyachin' before I go down there and take care of it Blago style
The Gov.
I agree, Papa Gulesian is a stand up guy. He demonstrates a genuine respect and always courtesy for opposing school kids. Including kids who compete against his sons. I couldn't agree more.
Artist,
That was very interesting how you officiated our discussion by awarding yourself the Game, Set, and Match all based on your personal opinion. Never mind that you did not show one instance where a child was held back and it was detrimental to their Athletic/Academic career.
This is the problem with lack of maturity, (I think it would have been beneficial to you if you had been held back a year or two yourself) you think that because you wholeheartedly believe something that it must be true. At your age ones sense of self is so centralized they often think that if their emotions on a topic are so strong then the rest of humanity must have a congruent perception to that of your own. Well I am here to tell you that is not the case.
In my case I don’t want or need anyone to agree with me, I merely present well reasoned arguments and hope that there are those out there intelligent enough to reciprocate with their own well reasoned rebuttal. Unfortunately you well under exceeded my expectations. You offered no evidence, merely conjecture and baseless accusations, you offered no names, merely faceless and fictitious characters that must exist in your mind, and you offered no case studies where any specific child who was held back was worse for the wear. Now I understand that is a hard task because the evidence that very few if any cases such as that exist is overwhelming, yet I was sure that because you were filling your mouth with such vile over the practice of retaining kids that you would surely find a prominent example of a child that was held that went on to suffer greatly because of this action.
No likely you are an “also ran” who too late realized that the rules could have benefited you if you would have bothered to educate yourself on them, or if your coach would have had and actual plan for your development outside of having a ?lber, or if you parents would have had any interest in your career outside of lets get him through school and into college(i.e. out of the house) A.S.A.P.
And now to address a few of your points,
My apologies for making you wait three weeks, I take vacations too and answering your questions is not a priority, though I am here to do that now.
You do not know that I am an assistant or anything else at American; that is an assumption, and a poor, lazy, and erroneous one at that. Of course, that is a pattern where you are concerned.
Holding someone back for academic purposes may be sending the wrong message as far as you are concerned, but that is just your opinion, the facts are against you as I already showed in my post and will I am sure have to reiterate quite frequently since you will not accept the FACTS over your personal disdain.
Being held back does not lessen the priority of education, in fact, I gave you two instances (both Grajales boys) that are Ivy League caliber and yet benefited from this very practice we are arguing about.
You are correct; Brandon kids would do great even if they were not held back because they do start very young, however, would they be good enough to be considered the best high school wrestler in the nation as Eric Grajales is? I’ll put it to you simply, was Eric Grajales the #1 wrestler in the nation when he was in 10th grade? No he was not, clearly he benefited from two more years, and parlayed that into a “FULL” ride at Michigan, a clear and present example of how well retention works.
You said,
“Starting high school at 16 instead of 14 is ridiculous, and you will NEVER convince me this is done for the right reasons.
This is the one thing you said that I wholeheartedly agree with, you are obviously not mature enough to accept well reasoned arguments that are contrasting to your own myopic view.
You said,
“This subject is always argued almost every year and on almost every message board in the nation. The result is always the same, It's cheating no matter how you cut it.”
Wrong again, it’s cheating based on your perception and skewed view of morality and the right and wrong of things, because in actuality no rule is broken, no law is subverted, and no regulation is ignored. You would make a fantastic dictator; you can bend everyone to your will regardless of the law.
You said,
I don't even like heavyweights because of the general lack of skill because they play other sports.
And here we see another example of your elitist and biased perspective. Heavyweight wrestling is different because they are giants, they do not move like the little guys (with some exceptions) that does not make them any less entertaining, that is merely your definition because it does not fit the predisposed definition of wrestling that you have in your head. I’m starting to think you’re a Bigot actually.
You said,
“Yes Brandon has set the standard for cheating within the rules, but as your poll reflects, ITS STILL CHEATING!”
This statement is pure Fallacy, extremely bad logic, and does not even merit rebuttal save to say that you are the epitome of an example for an oxymoron. Explain to me how you cheat within the rules? That’s like saying it was a dry rain, or I was falling up, it is a moronic statement. My poll reflects sentiment, how people feel about it, but peoples emotions on a subject is not law, it’s often a mob. A poll could show that people would hang a murderer on the spot when caught, and yet the law allows for due process, I would in that case side with the law in opposition to the people, does that make me wrong? Not according to the law.
You said,
“Spidey, you have always preached a hatred for teams that "recruit".”
Wrong again! I have never preached any such thing, in fact I am a prominent advocate that kids should be allowed to go where they will. What I am opposed to is teams and coaches raiding each others squads. In other words, to me a coach that approaches a wrestler at another school to recruit him away from his team is despicable. Teams recruit actively and passively, I have no objection to either so long as it is done prior to them having started high school, and this is just my opinion on the matter, the right and wrong of it needs to be argued case by case because the circumstances are typically dissimilar.
You said,
“The fact is that 19-9 is too old.”
WRONG! That is not a fact, that is you own personal opinion, the FACT is that the FHSAA has determined that 19-9 is exactly the right number. If I am not mistaken that number was reached because of some litigation that was brought before the FHSAA when an athlete who had some difficulty in his personal life had his athletic career shortened due to what was by the court determined to be an unreasonable age at which a student could no longer compete. I believe the formula was that if you began your senior season having tuned 19 you were ineligible, and the courts determined that was unjust and ordered the FHSAA to adopt a more representative policy.
You said,
That's why your poll backfired, because you are wrong and a majority of people agree.”
The Majority of People applauded Castro as he came down to Havana from La Sierra Maestra, they were wrong.
The Majority of the people Cheered Hitler and joined him in hating the Jews, they were wrong.
The Majority is often to blame for some of the worst ill’s of humanity; Slavery, the Crusades, the Inquisitions etc.
This is none of that thank god, nevertheless it is in my opinion another example of the majority being wrong.
Artist,
I have known many kids who after graduating high school took some time off (a year or two), to travel, work, relax, enjoy life before they start college. Even today it is commonplace to see young adults take three to four years to graduate with their AA and then two years later actually graduate with their BS. That only shows that most kids today are extremely immature and cannot truly handle the demands of college because of their age and immaturity. Given a choice I would also graduate high school at 17 and graduate college at 21. Alas, most kids are not like you and me so they may need a year or two of maturity in order to really exell in their educations endeavors.
You also stated that most coaches don't care about their kids after they graduated and helped their teams win. I disagree with that statement. I have spoken to several wrestlers many years after their high school career were over and most still go by their old high school and use their coach for advice and guidance. You seem to think that coaches are all powerful and can force a kid to wrestle in college or even go to college and become someone of importance. Once again your flawed view needs to be corrected. WE are ALL important. Lawn care people as well as Publix employees are all important. How big your paycheck is only seems to matter to people who like you who were raised with a catholic education but still fail to truly know and learn the basic lessons given by your gospel. You cannot serve mammon and God at the same time.
Money is great, but a great family and friends is even better. A great education is wonderful but a real education comes from family and the lessons of God himself. A giant cook out with 50 friends and 50 family members in your exclusive community is great but so is a relaxing afternoon with family and friends outside your apartment.
What's up with the gmac brackets. Spidey, KW we know South Dade and Braddock have them already. Post them up and stop being such a hog.
Anonymous,
AMEN!
Very well stated!
HERE HERE!!!
Anonymous,
I believe that the G.M.A.C. seeding meeting does not even take place until tomorrow night, so Braddock and SD could not possibly have the brackets.
One bit of news however is that the G.M.A.C. will attempt for the first time ever to seed the top 8 wrestlers in the tournament. I love this idea and would love to be a Spider on the wall in the room, it could get heated.
there goes spideysorio trying to throw another curve and act like he don't know. you are so bad at trying to keep people from knowing you are osorio. you are suppose to be the greatest and your sources are second to none correct. don't act like you don't know the meeting is tonight.
You are slipping Spidorio. When will you have your predictions for GMAC. I think there has been enough wrestling for you to put somthing together.
Phucker,
If I knew when the meeting was I would have stated so.
If I would have inquired to my sources, I'm sure I would have been provided accurate information.
I made an assumption because typically every year, the meeting is on a Wednesday. However, I have now confirmed with a source and you are correct, the meeting is tonight. That does not change the facts, there is no way SD or BRD could have the bracets which is my original point.
Spidey;
The correct phrase is (Hear Hear!)
Mr.Grammar,
You sir are correct.
I unlike others appreciate your corrections.
I love the english language, but many times I can be guilty of writing without thinking. Though my vocabulary is sound, my spelling and at times puntuations leave something to be desired.
In my native tongue a word is what it is and nothing else, meaning that obviously in English one word spelled the same can mean three different things. A word can be pronounced the same but also mean three different things, and thus I sometimes make these types of errors.
Your correction makes my mind sharper because I will commit to not making the same mistake again.
Once again,
Thank You!
You are full of nothing but a lot of hot air.... keep preaching your crap about the age thing, as long as you believe yourself, you will feel good about it. And FL will continue to be the laughing stock of the wrestling world for their red shirt reputation (go read a few of the other states message boards).
Name me one other state that allows 19-9?
This is the first I hear about Chirino's "constant bragging about how he placed at states as a sophomore." I had no idea he was such a cocky mofo.
19-9 is wrong, It takes away from kids that actually follow the grade progression honestly. It makes it worse that a kid who's an 18 year old junior brags so much.
I whole-heartedly agree with you. However, Chirino seems like a great kid. When does he actually brag about what he's accomplished?
Same anymous as above. There is a rumor that Julian Eddie from South Dade has quit. True?
Chirino hasn't bragged about anything. I've never heard seen or watched him do anything that would resemble a brag.
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